00:00:01 - 00:00:32 Charlie McCoy

Oh. Could you come over to Columbia Studio this afternoon? I want you to meet Bob Dylan. I said okay. So I went over, walked in. He introduced me to Dylan, and Dylan said, why don't you get that guitar over there and play along with us? Okay. The song was Desolation Row, an 11 minute ballad with just him and an acoustic bass and me playing guitar.

00:00:32 - 00:00:40 Charlie McCoy

And I'm sitting there thinking, what would Grady Martin do? You know, because it was the guitar had all the feels, everything.

00:00:40 - 00:00:48 Ric Stewart

When Bob opens up the lyrics, they're with, they're selling postcards of the hanging and they're painting the passports Brown. What was going through your mind?

00:00:48 - 00:00:51 Charlie McCoy

Oh, I thought it was weird.

00:00:51 - 00:01:03 Ric Stewart

Country Music Hall of Famer and Grammy winner Charlie McCoy talks about bringing Bob Dylan to Nashville and highlights decades of recording hit songs on soul country number nine.

00:01:03 - 00:01:10 Ric Stewart

I'm Ric Stewart, a film making deejay since the mid 80s, adding some real life podcasts to get deeper into soul country. Good God.

00:01:12 - 00:01:24 Ric Stewart

Where we cover tales from the intersection of R&B and Americana. Listen in as we revitalize our cultural roots in Western blues and variety.

00:01:24 - 00:01:39 Ric Stewart

These productions documentary blues rock hits Soul Country is chock full of exclusive performances and interviews from Rock and Roll Hall of Famers and Grammy winners. It's the origin story of Soul Country. Check it out at Soul country.com.

00:01:39 - 00:01:53 Ric Stewart

Well, Charlie talked about Elvis, William, Waylon and Show and Johnny Cash, how to play two halves. And here's how it all went down. Tell me how you first got started in music and whether it was country or rock and roll at the time.

00:01:53 - 00:02:15 Charlie McCoy

I was 17 playing. I got hired to play with a band. It was a band. It didn't have a guitar, and they hired me because they needed a guitar player to do a Dick Clark tour in Florida. And on the last night of our tour, we had a surprise guest, Chuck Berry, and I was like, freaking out, you know?

00:02:15 - 00:02:40 Charlie McCoy

And I finally said, Mr. Berry, what would you like for me to do? And he said, just be careful, son. Yeah. It was fun. I don't know if I played a note all night long. I stood there with like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. I started playing, in Florida with, a country band, but my job was to play rock and roll ten minutes each hour.

00:02:40 - 00:03:05 Charlie McCoy

That's what I did. And in this man was Johnny Paycheck playing bass. Bill Phillips was our singer. He later became the frontman for Kenny Wells and Johnny right up here touring, you know? And, one night, Mel Tillis came in, and when I came down from doing my song, he said, boy, you come to Nashville, I'll get you on records.

00:03:06 - 00:03:27 Charlie McCoy

Hey, that was like showing a steak to a wolf at the day after high school. I came up here, went to the office, he told me was his father gave me a card. Cedar Wood publisher company. And I walked in. I'm here to see Mel Tillis, the receptionist. He's out of town. You know, we didn't have cell phones, and, so you could talk to his manager.

00:03:27 - 00:03:54 Charlie McCoy

Jim Denny was his manager, and I started to tell him, and he said, Mel told me about you. You want some auditions? And I said, yes. He set me up with Chet Atkins and Owen Bradley. I didn't even know who they were singing and playing my guitar. Well, they both turned me down, thank God. And then. Oh, and Bradley says I'm having a session as afternoon.

00:03:54 - 00:04:15 Charlie McCoy

Would you like to come watch? And I said, yes. I watch 13 year old Brenda Lee record our first hit. When I heard the first playback, I said, I don't want to be a singer. I want to do this. The studio was the Quonset hut. There wasn't even a music stand in there. There was no headphones in there.

00:04:15 - 00:04:41 Charlie McCoy

That's the way it started here. You had to memorize everything. And when you're recording, you're making the record. So everybody's got to be right. And they were so efficient and so good, you know. And I'm one of. And finally I came back I went back in university and dropped out before the year was over. My father was so upset.

00:04:41 - 00:05:02 Charlie McCoy

He later forgave me when I introduced him to Dolly Parton. I came back living with a songwriter, and, he'd have people over every day, and I would. I was fascinated by this. And one day he said, hey, why don't you get your harmonica to play along with us? These. It was they were writing a song, and I did, and he said, I'm going to get you to play on the demo.

00:05:02 - 00:05:34 Charlie McCoy

I really like that. So put it on a demo. A month happens. We get a call. Chet just called. He wants whoever played that harmonica to play on this record and do exactly what they did on the demo. An unknown singer from Sweden named. And Margaret Mae, 61, my first session. And Margaret, 20 year old and Margaret. And there was Chip and and the publisher went with me.

00:05:34 - 00:05:57 Charlie McCoy

Chet. Here's Chet said, I know you. I said, yeah, I'd audition for you a couple of years ago. He said, black Gibson guitar, sang Chuck Berry. I couldn't believe he remembered that. And I said, yeah. And he said, we should appoint the harmonica. We'd have done something. And then the story's so quick. At the end of the session, bass player Bob Moore walked over to me.

00:05:57 - 00:06:25 Charlie McCoy

You free Friday? I was free the rest of my life. And I said, yeah, I'm free. Said, come back here, we're at RCA. He said, come back here. I'm recording Roy Orbison. I was already a huge fan. We did a record called Candy man. Record hit the radio. My phone started ringing 64 years next month. It's still ringing.

00:06:25 - 00:06:31 Unknown

But, I.

00:06:31 - 00:06:33 Charlie McCoy

That was Candy, man.

00:06:33 - 00:06:35 Ric Stewart

Pretty heavy blues.

00:06:35 - 00:06:55 Charlie McCoy

Well, the funny thing was, I knew Harold Bradley because he had been the leader on these demos sessions. I played on. I'd played on a couple demo sessions, and Roy was saying, somebody's got to come up with an intro. And right away I got an idea. But I'm thinking, man, I'm the new kid. I better shut up here, I don't.

00:06:55 - 00:07:12 Charlie McCoy

Finally, Roy says, come on, tell somebody. So I walked over here, Harold, what if I did this? And in Nevada he said, hey, hey everybody. Charlie's got the intro. And I was like, whoa! And that's what. That's what we did that intro.

00:07:12 - 00:07:19 Ric Stewart

Did you see yourself as having a strong affinity for blues? Did you spend time like sort of apprenticing that?

00:07:19 - 00:07:50 Charlie McCoy

Well, yes. And what happened was as time passed, although I still love the blues and Little Walter is absolutely my favorite, but I realized if I'm going to stay in this town, I've got to clean this thing up. I got to play melodies. I got to stay away from the singers and that's what. And all of a sudden, it has.

00:07:50 - 00:08:14 Charlie McCoy

Now what people say. I have a style, one of the happiest days of my life. When is America Pass on the street? And he said, I heard a record by so-and-so, and I know it was you that was like, that's what I wanted. You know, people don't even know this. But at the end of that Bobby Bland cut Turn on Your Love Light.

00:08:14 - 00:08:42 Charlie McCoy

But he had his own band, you know, but, Harold Brenner was telling me about he said their leader, the horn player, wrote down the horn parts on a napkin for the horns to play. But, yeah, it was great. And over these years, so many stars who are non country have recorded here and you know, it's it's become an international all genre recording center.

00:08:42 - 00:09:13 Charlie McCoy

The guy started migrating from Muscle Shoals here the the Memphis boys. They came up here as a unit you know from Atlanta. We got Joe Schell, Jerry Reed, Ray Stevens and Chip young, you know, and it's people were drawn to Nashville because of well number one, if you most of those places it was a deal. You got so much money to work on an album, if it took two days or if it took two weeks, that was it.

00:09:13 - 00:09:37 Charlie McCoy

When the Memphis boys were here, the after the about the first year, I was on a session with Reggie Young and he says, you know what? This past year I made twice whatever I made in Memphis working for a union scale. And, and plus, you know, with the union, we have a pension. I mean, these are these are attractive things.

00:09:37 - 00:09:51 Ric Stewart

Right? So Memphis had had a giant outburst there at the, the Blues. And then the original rock and roll Elvis and, Jerry Lee. But some of them come over here too. And Jerry Lee kind of went country. And Elvis had said, yeah, you know, who's kind of aimin to be a country star? It just turned out differently.

00:09:51 - 00:10:14 Charlie McCoy

I was very good friends with Carl Perkins, and, recorded with Jerry Lee some, what made Milwaukee famous? I played on that. And, Charlie Rich, he's he did a first recording in Memphis. Orbison did his first recording in Memphis, but I don't know what happened down there because Fred Foster picked him up up here in Nashville.

00:10:14 - 00:10:19 Charlie McCoy

And all of a sudden, you know, only the lonely. And here we go.

00:10:19 - 00:10:31 Ric Stewart

You know, Wayland sings about that to come to Nashville and and you fit in in the system. And it's the same old song, fiddle and guitar. Where do we take it from here? I mean, a lot of his attitudes were, I'm a Texas guy who has to work out of Nashville, you know, so he came over here.

00:10:31 - 00:10:38 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, I played on, oh. We did a little. Walked a alone, I guess maybe that was one of his first hits.

00:10:38 - 00:10:41 Ric Stewart

So what were your impressions of him? I wanted to ask you a little bit about working with Waylon.

00:10:41 - 00:11:11 Charlie McCoy

Oh, I liked it. He was a really nice guy, and, Chet was in charge. And the funny thing about that song was that, Jerry Reed and Wayne Morse were both on the session playing guitar, and Chet come out and said, one of you guys play a solo, so they flipped a coin. Wayne lost the flip, the solo he played on all the way down to walk the line is one of the best solos on a country record I've ever heard.

00:11:12 - 00:11:16 Ric Stewart

And then in a live performance, I'd be well. And playing that, that kind of chicken picking.

00:11:16 - 00:11:21 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. I was playing harmonica, an organ on that.

00:11:21 - 00:11:42 Ric Stewart

I've noticed the video still around you know, on the, Johnny Cash show from about 1969 or so. But the band seems pretty loose, you know, like. Yeah, they were having a little too good of a time. I mean, that's kind of quintessential Waylon, where he sort of gets a little groove going. He's got an R&B factor in his in his basslines, which I don't know, only daddy to walk the line.

00:11:42 - 00:11:49 Ric Stewart

Yeah, that's part of that chugging rhythm is part of his version of country, which, not everybody paid as much attention to that, I don't think.

00:11:49 - 00:12:09 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, but, well. And after that, he went on to have a what a great career, you know, I mean, music is going to evolve. You can't stop it. It's it's changes. You know, it's been doing it since the beginning of time. And. Yeah, it's just something you either you either roll with it or you get out, I guess.

00:12:09 - 00:12:19 Ric Stewart

Right. So okay. So then I noticed also you had been on the session for lonesome, ornery and Mean, which was only four years later. Was he a much changed man with all that, momentum?

00:12:19 - 00:12:37 Charlie McCoy

Yeah. Yeah. And then, of course, the alcohol thing together. Well, what a big change that was. I worked with Willie in 62. He came to this session with a suit and tie and short hair, and he.

00:12:37 - 00:12:38 Ric Stewart

Changed more than anybody.

00:12:38 - 00:13:00 Charlie McCoy

Right? Yeah, but people begin to recognize what a writer he was. You know, when it when he. When Patsy Cline recorded crazy, I said, oh my gosh, what a great song that is. You know, and, so he, he was, he was making his mark as a writer before the outlaw thing.

00:13:00 - 00:13:17 Ric Stewart

Yeah. He became a, yeah, performer of his own song. Right. Which was part of the evolution of the music, too, like, Yeah. Elvis complains about that in the 72 interview when he was playing Madison Square Gardens, and he's like, it's harder to get good songs from the songwriters anymore because they want to play them themselves, which was a change your own around.

00:13:17 - 00:13:53 Charlie McCoy

Well, yeah. Yeah, well, I worked with Elvis. 13 albums. What a nice guy he was. And, you know, in that time, in 1965 was the first session he couldn't even go out on the street. Hardly. And the studio was a safe place surrounded by people. He respected and liked doing what he loved to do. So he was completely relaxed in the studio and, we were concerned, the first thing I was hired for was the soundtrack of the movie Haram Scare.

00:13:53 - 00:14:11 Charlie McCoy

What happened was the movie company changed the date of the recording for the soundtrack, and all the guys that normally work for him were already busy. So they called Scotty Moore, and they said, we're going to change the dates. And he said, well, the some of the guys may be busy. And they said, tell them to cancel.

00:14:11 - 00:14:32 Charlie McCoy

This is Elvis. And he said, you don't understand. In Nashville. You don't cancel one artist for another. You just don't do that. He said, don't worry about it. I'll get you a good band. He ended up with Hall of Famer Pig Robbins, Hall of Famer Grady Martin, you know, and, the band was pretty good. Kenny Beaudry on drums.

00:14:32 - 00:14:34 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, it was it was a good band.

00:14:34 - 00:14:48 Ric Stewart

Song I want to talk about was Big Boss Man. So we tied together the Jimmy Reed, and that's right down the middle of Soul country. And Elvis is kind of bluesy or side. Yeah. He didn't do as much of that in the, soundtrack era as he'd done in his, like, burst of fame in the beginning.

00:14:48 - 00:15:08 Charlie McCoy

Right. I remember the cool thing is, when he met Jerry Reed, he was just crazy about Jerry Reed, as was everybody that met him. You know? And, we did, Guitar Man, and we did Big Boss Man. And with Jerry Reed was there, and it was it was great. It was at RCA B.

00:15:08 - 00:15:14 Ric Stewart

And he was coming back into perform live again, and B The Comeback. Yeah. Elvis.

00:15:14 - 00:15:30 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, yeah. And then in 1970, they did what was called the, marathon sessions. We think we did enough music for like three albums. And it was, it was a great experience.

00:15:30 - 00:15:35 Ric Stewart

Yeah. He became prolific again. I kind of like that area. You mean he had, James Burton, one of the greats?

00:15:35 - 00:15:36 Charlie McCoy

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:15:36 - 00:15:38 Ric Stewart

So you must have been on a lot of sessions with him.

00:15:38 - 00:15:39 Charlie McCoy

Yes.

00:15:39 - 00:15:42 Ric Stewart

So, you know, what could you tell me about his, playing style?

00:15:43 - 00:16:03 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, he he was, he was great. He was a, you know, everything came right off the top of his head, just like, you know, so many of those musicians had it instantly. They come up with something great, and that's, that's, and, and I understand why Elvis liked him a lot, because he was sure complimented.

00:16:03 - 00:16:07 Ric Stewart

And, he'd come in to fame with Ricky Nelson. Really?

00:16:07 - 00:16:16 Charlie McCoy

Oh, right. Yeah. Hello, Mary Lou. When I heard that guitar part, I said, whoa, wait a minute. Who is that? That was great.

00:16:16 - 00:16:32 Ric Stewart

Yeah, I'm going to have to learn how to play that. I it is one of my favorites. Did I just look at that and like, he's like coming from the future, you know, like, when LED Zeppelin, you know, really reworks those licks. They did play I think that live. But you could tell that Jimmy Page is styling is built on that heavily.

00:16:32 - 00:16:49 Ric Stewart

But also John Fogerty, when you look at, Susie Q, it's like so much of his music is variations of the licks from from that one track. Yeah, it was a it was like a whatever that is a giant ball of flame up there. And it was given off like he realized the value of just kind of joining a band and being the band leader.

00:16:49 - 00:16:52 Ric Stewart

And you've been a band leader to write in for, like, sessions, and.

00:16:52 - 00:17:15 Charlie McCoy

Was a leader on all the different sessions that were done here. And, yeah, I've been I've been a leader a lot. Of course I was, you know, I was a leader of two bands, one in Florida and and one we had a band here in the early 60s called Charlie McCoy. And the escorts with people like Kenny Buttery, Matt guiding, Wayne Moss.

00:17:15 - 00:17:35 Charlie McCoy

You know, we played we were the only band in Tennessee that played R&B. So we would get booked at Fort Campbell at the all black NCO club. We were the only band who did, you know, of White Guys, of course, that was that was back in the early 60s.

00:17:35 - 00:17:42 Ric Stewart

Let's talk about Dylan for a second here. So overall, do you still hear from him and how would you describe that working relationship?

00:17:42 - 00:18:06 Charlie McCoy

I never heard from him when I was with him. He didn't know the answer to hello. The whole that whole story is so bizarre. In 1964, I started getting calls from songwriter Bob Johnston. So my name is Bob Johnson. I live in Texas. I write for the Elvis Presley music group. I want to get my songs and Elvis movies.

00:18:06 - 00:18:15 Charlie McCoy

Would you made some demo sessions for me? And I said, sure. And so he came up 2 or 3 times.

00:18:15 - 00:18:38 Charlie McCoy

When the he did get 2 or 3 songs in Elvis movies, but the songs that he did, and he'd take them to other places and so he's in New York, Columbia Records playing demos for the head of A&R. And the guy said, these demos are great. Where'd you make them? And he said, Nashville. He said, did you produce these?

00:18:38 - 00:18:59 Charlie McCoy

And Bob that? And he's telling me the story. He said, I thought a second. I said, yes, you think you'd like to be a record producer? Yes. Well, he said, listen, I got a shot for you. We have an artist on the last session of her contract, and if nothing happens, we're going to drop her. Would you like to try her?

00:18:59 - 00:19:22 Charlie McCoy

And he said, yeah. What's her name? Patti Page. So he goes and starts calling the Elvis version. There's people in L.A. that he knows. He found a movie theme that needed recorded. He calls me on the phone and he said, get the band together. I'm bringing Patti Page to Nashville. And I said, what do you bring in? Patti Page?

00:19:22 - 00:19:44 Charlie McCoy

He came, brought Patti Page. We recorded hush Hush, Sweet Charlotte, which was a medium kind of hit. Saved our contract for Columbia Records. Then Columbia thought, man, we found our knight in shining armor. How do you like to record Bob Dylan? Yes. So he called me and he said, I'm going to move to New York for a while.

00:19:44 - 00:20:04 Charlie McCoy

If you ever come up there, call me. I'll get you Broadway tickets. I said, okay, so the end of 64, the World's Fair was in New York. I called him, I said, well, I'm in town. How about my tickets? He said, no problem. By the way, could you come over to Columbia Studio this afternoon? I want you to meet Bob Dylan.

00:20:04 - 00:20:34 Charlie McCoy

I said, okay, so I went over, walked in. He introduced me to Dylan, and Dylan said, why don't you get that guitar over there and play along with us? Okay? The song was Desolation Row, an 11 minute ballad with just him and an acoustic bass and me playing guitar, and I'm sitting there thinking, what would Grady Martin do, you know, because it was the guitar had all the fields, everything.

00:20:34 - 00:20:52 Charlie McCoy

So we recorded it once, listened once, recorded it a second time, and the bass player had to leave. So that was the end of it. And I thought that was weird. That was really weird. 65th February Johnston calls me. Get the band together. I'm bringing Dylan to Nashville.

00:20:52 - 00:21:02 Ric Stewart

One question about Desolation Row when Bob opens up the lyrics they're with, they're selling postcards of the hanging and they're painting the passports. Brown. What was going through your mind when the.

00:21:02 - 00:21:04 Charlie McCoy

Oh, I thought it was weird. Yeah.

00:21:04 - 00:21:06 Ric Stewart

Like he was definitely on the outside range there.

00:21:06 - 00:21:33 Charlie McCoy

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, in February of, 65, he came, we recorded a RCA, Columbia, a the nude studio upstairs, and he tried to get in studio B, but it was booked all the time back then, you know, and, so but they said, go to studio. Hey, you can have it. You can block book it for a week because nobody wanted to do it there.

00:21:33 - 00:21:57 Charlie McCoy

You know, people were superstitious. All the hits are done. And B so we recorded in, Columbia, the first day was too strange. We were booked at 2:00. His flight was late. He showed up at six, took a dinner break, then he says, he hadn't finished writing the first song. Y'all just hang loose for a m the next morning.

00:21:58 - 00:22:31 Charlie McCoy

We started recording, sat out and lady of the lowlands, a 14 minute ballad, and everyone was certain say, please don't let me mess up, you know, because we it was, we were really whipped, you know, by that time. And next day after that, it started going better. But, I would, you know, I was session later. So when you're session later, you're the middleman between the artists, the band and the producer, and he'd play a song and I'd say, Bob, what do you think of we did this?

00:22:31 - 00:22:44 Charlie McCoy

I don't know, man. What do you think? So I finally I told Johnston, I said, I'm asking his opinion. He won't tell me anything. So I'm going to quit asking if we play something he doesn't like. Maybe he'll say something.

00:22:44 - 00:22:50 Ric Stewart

And you listen back to his earlier albums by then, right? Just to kind of know how we he rolled on his previous songs.

00:22:50 - 00:22:53 Charlie McCoy

Well, I had heard a few things, like like A rolling Stone.

00:22:53 - 00:23:02 Ric Stewart

Right? Because that album was so, electric and blues based, and then he switches over quite a bit of gears to go to blond on blond was more melodic, I guess you could say more lush environment.

00:23:02 - 00:23:26 Charlie McCoy

Yeah. The fun, the fun thing on, was, Johnson one afternoon he says, listen, tonight he wants to do a song with a Salvation Army sound. Maybe we'll get a need. A trumpet player and a trombone player. I said, does the trumpet need to be good? He said, no, it's Salvation Army. I'll. Then I'll play trumpet with the with the trumpet.

00:23:26 - 00:23:38 Charlie McCoy

And I called a friend of mine, a trombone player, and we did, everybody must get stoned. And all that noise, the yelling and laughing. That was a live on a recording.

00:23:39 - 00:23:42 Ric Stewart

Was that done? Marching around in a circle was up. Everybody stationed?

00:23:42 - 00:23:50 Charlie McCoy

No no no no no. But that that was trying to get the effect of it super loose. Yeah. All right. Right.

00:23:50 - 00:23:57 Ric Stewart

And I think he calls it rainy day women numbers 12 and 35. And he, feeling, how he came up with that.

00:23:57 - 00:23:57 Charlie McCoy

I don't.

00:23:57 - 00:24:00 Ric Stewart

Know, it's all mystical stuff. No.

00:24:00 - 00:24:42 Charlie McCoy

You know, Nashville is such a friendly, personal town. It was so different to encounter someone like that who was, like, so standoffish. But I must say, what Dylan coming here did for Nashville recording was absolutely amazing. After he the floodgates open, it was almost like he gave his stamp of approval and the floodgates opened. I recorded then with Joan Baez, Buffy Sainte Marie, Peter, Paul and Mary, Manhattan Transfer, Simon Garfunkel, Gordon Lightfoot, Dan Fogelberg, you know, and they just kept coming and kept coming.

00:24:42 - 00:24:44 Ric Stewart

And they're all, yeah, from the Tree of Dylan.

00:24:44 - 00:24:51 Charlie McCoy

So we needed, more studios and more musicians are getting to work. So it was a great thing.

00:24:51 - 00:25:10 Ric Stewart

All right. So he changes a lot and he really kind of gets together with the band. And Robbie Robertson had been in blond on blond, but not so much. The rest of the guys right there was just him and then they. So one track, here's one from my radio days. I think I played this in 1987 on the radio as I went out one morning on, John Wesley Harding.

00:25:10 - 00:25:20 Ric Stewart

So you you're playing bass on that record, which really sounds like a leading instrument. Kind of a loping, more aggressive style of bass there, but it's up in the mix.

00:25:20 - 00:25:27 Charlie McCoy

I was just following the Nashville studio thing. Play what fits the song. That's it.

00:25:27 - 00:25:33 Ric Stewart

Yeah, because. Because I just wondered if that was different when you're trying to lead the band and of course you're whatever helping directors.

00:25:33 - 00:25:43 Charlie McCoy

We'll see in that R&B band that we had in the early 60s, I was playing bass, so we were doing Motown and I was very comfortable with electric bass.

00:25:43 - 00:25:52 Ric Stewart

So talking about the kind of groove Orange Blossom special and and that was kind of more the train sound of harmonica with John 65.

00:25:52 - 00:26:17 Charlie McCoy

I was booked to work with Johnny Cash and, he had lyrics for Orange Blossom Special. I never knew there were such. To me. It was just a fiddle, you know, a fiddle show showpiece, you know. And he walked over to me and said, can you play a solo on this? And I was like, you know, I've just I've been taught to say yes and figure it out.

00:26:17 - 00:26:43 Charlie McCoy

And I said, okay. So, I thought, what am I going to do? I want to try to get kind of like a fiddle. So I figured out a thing with these two harmonicas, and after the session, he walked over. Can you show me how to do that? And I said, yeah, okay. So I showed him and I said, here, you can have these two harps.

00:26:43 - 00:27:10 Unknown

And, I.

00:27:10 - 00:27:27 Charlie McCoy

Later on, he paid me back when he, his word got my two kids in a private school that no one else could have got them into. So. And my son was in the same class with John Carter Cash all the way through high school.

00:27:27 - 00:27:36 Ric Stewart

Amazing. Was he an artist that you'd, kept note of much before that? Was he one of your icons of the business kind of thing?

00:27:36 - 00:27:57 Charlie McCoy

I played with, you know, Bobby Vinton and Brooke Benton came here. But I was did all the Statler Brothers and Tom G. Hall and, and I did a lot of, Loretta Lynn.

00:27:57 - 00:28:05 Ric Stewart

Let's talk about the Simon and Garfunkel. So you're on the the bass harmonica. Right on the boxer. What was the scene like recording that?

00:28:06 - 00:28:17 Charlie McCoy

When I got a phone call, it was from this was so-and-so from Paul Simon's office. And he wants to know.

00:28:17 - 00:28:23 Charlie McCoy

If you have a bass harmonica. And I'm saying to myself, not yet.

00:28:23 - 00:28:34 Charlie McCoy

But I said yes. So I called the Hohner Harmonica Company, and I got one. And,

00:28:34 - 00:28:57 Charlie McCoy

We did the box around. I, I would like to take credit with what I play for, what I played. But Paul Simon dictated every note to me. And he was right. He was a genius, I'll tell you, he was. When you look at his body of work, they're all different styles and different kind of songs. And most artists have a groove, you know, like kind of things are similar with him.

00:28:57 - 00:29:24 Charlie McCoy

Everything was over. But I think I've got the I got the impression about him and Garfunkel at that point. Every time Garfunkel had a suggestion, it was almost like a recording. No, Artie, that won't work. And, so and it wasn't long after, I, I don't know, a kind of lose track of time, but it wasn't too long after that that they split.

00:29:24 - 00:29:37 Ric Stewart

Yeah, they inspired a lot of people to change all the, assumptions about what I'm going to write next and try and do the full range of I got my Caribbean tune, I got my hard rock tune, I got my folk thing, I got I got my French, you know, like, whatever, you can come up with. They were gonna.

00:29:37 - 00:29:39 Ric Stewart

We need to do one of those.

00:29:39 - 00:29:49 Charlie McCoy

I'd like that. In fact, I've done it myself in my own career. You know, I've done Cajun, New Orleans, I've done plenty of gospel. I've done bossa nova. You know,

00:29:49 - 00:30:01 Ric Stewart

Back in 72, a big track was Delta done by Tanya Tucker. So I noticed that the harmonica plays a different role in that song, where it's kind of like it brings you back to the small town. Yeah. You can't just grab that scene a little bit.

00:30:01 - 00:30:23 Charlie McCoy

Well, we got booked, and, here she comes, 13 years old, and I'm thinking this reminds me of that Brenda Lee. Yes, I should I watched, you know, a 13 year old girl recording, but the song was great. You know, it was interesting. And she did a good job on it. And, hey, bang! It was a hit.

00:30:23 - 00:30:31 Ric Stewart

To one last track to talk about. You mentioned Johnny Paycheck. You were on Take This Job and Shove It. So that was kind of a landmark country track as well.

00:30:31 - 00:31:00 Charlie McCoy

Well, in that band I was playing in in Florida, he was the bass player and he called himself Johnny Young. Donny Young is what he called himself. And then he came up here and recorded for a little off label and, he recorded as Johnny Paycheck. And then somehow he went, got switched over to Columbia Records and, and then they did that.

00:31:00 - 00:31:13 Charlie McCoy

Don't take her. She's all I got in that pool. That's the one that really got him going. And then after that, I played on Slide Off of Your Satin sheets.

00:31:14 - 00:31:19 Charlie McCoy

I'm the only hell my mama ever raised, you know, take this job and shove it. Yeah.

00:31:19 - 00:31:22 Ric Stewart

He was on a great run there in the 70s. Yeah, yeah.

00:31:22 - 00:31:23 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, he.

00:31:23 - 00:31:25 Ric Stewart

Was sort of outlaw, I guess, too. But he did his own way.

00:31:25 - 00:31:26 Charlie McCoy

He was?

00:31:26 - 00:31:27 Ric Stewart

Yeah, coming from a different place.

00:31:27 - 00:31:31 Charlie McCoy

But ahead of his time, he was a different God. You're right.

00:31:31 - 00:31:42 Ric Stewart

He was. He was when it was, you know, you were type. You brought up, Jerry Reed, you know, one of my favorite players. And he was always sort of outside the system, too. And that was put him into the movies in the Smokey and the bandit as kind of the scofflaw.

00:31:42 - 00:32:17 Charlie McCoy

You know, that that song, that song, that, act naturally. Johnny Russell wrote that song, but that was Jerry Reed, that movie. He did not have to rehearse. That was him. His total personality just fit exactly in that movie. Those Burt Reynolds, those two Burt Reynolds films, you know, and I said, here is a guy that didn't need to rehearse this part because he's just being himself.

00:32:17 - 00:32:18 Ric Stewart

You know, typecast.

00:32:18 - 00:32:19 Charlie McCoy

Yeah.

00:32:19 - 00:32:34 Ric Stewart

But yeah, I enjoyed the movie, I suppose. But it was when I really later started being a DJ and getting all these records, and he had the, you know, Amos Moses and, you got the gold mine, I got the shaft and all these, you know, he's very funny. But he led to the show that I did on radio before Soul Country.

00:32:34 - 00:32:48 Ric Stewart

I did one called Country Funk because I was looking for like a, you know, the type of country that really has, you know, more crazy rhythm, I guess, you know. But he brought that to the guitar in that, yes, Guitar Man song. You know, I just love the song so much because it's like the missing.

00:32:48 - 00:32:51 Charlie McCoy

One of his biggest fans was Chet.

00:32:51 - 00:32:53 Ric Stewart

Right. And they did, what, three albums together? Anything?

00:32:53 - 00:33:05 Charlie McCoy

Yeah. Because you know, that that style, that fingerstyle guitar, it kind of has a progression. Merle Travis, then Chet, then Jerry Reed.

00:33:05 - 00:33:12 Ric Stewart

Those are my kind of guys. So let's talk about your your solo career. So you had won a Grammy on The Real McCoy album.

00:33:12 - 00:33:48 Charlie McCoy

So I've made 48 albums and three EP's. I have used counting studio musicians, singers and engineers, 572 people. I play melodies, I play songs. Many harmonica players are into riffs and solos. Well, doing studio work here, you know, I've taught I was taught by these guys. The singer in a song where the picture we are, the frame period.

00:33:49 - 00:33:51 Ric Stewart

So explain to me how cross harping works.

00:33:51 - 00:33:59 Charlie McCoy

Okay. Harmonica is built. They're built in keys.

00:33:59 - 00:34:11 Charlie McCoy

This is a sea harmonica. That's exhale. If you inhale down on the bottom, you get a J chord.

00:34:11 - 00:34:34 Charlie McCoy

G7. This is where the blues started, because. And these drawing in notes, you can manipulate them forever. Those are. That's called bending. Bending notes. And, the old guys, you know, owe me.

00:34:34 - 00:34:37 Unknown

Oh, no oh, no no no no.

00:34:38 - 00:34:48 Charlie McCoy

Oh.

00:34:48 - 00:35:21 Charlie McCoy

Oh. So that's that's that's what crawls harp is some people call it playing in second position, but I do almost everything in crossover. But I found that, when I want to play melodies like record songs, when I do these, songs that this, that dominant seventh gets in the way. So I have a new tuning. It's called the Country Tuning.

00:35:21 - 00:35:33 Charlie McCoy

That rate was raised a half pitch, half step. So now I can play. Oh.

00:35:33 - 00:35:37 Charlie McCoy

But if I need it,

00:35:37 - 00:36:10 Charlie McCoy

I can bend it back. So that's. And there's a whole lot of different tunings and a whole lot of different places. A different guys play. You know? This is all I'll do. I'll play Carl. 90% of the time. And, maybe more than, 90%. The record I had a hit on with cross crossover was.

00:36:10 - 00:36:16 Charlie McCoy

That's that's a C harp. I'm playing in the key of C, so my main position is.

00:36:16 - 00:36:17 Ric Stewart

And what was that one called.

00:36:17 - 00:36:18 Charlie McCoy

Shenandoah.

00:36:18 - 00:36:20 Ric Stewart

That had like a kind of Civil War vibe or something that was.

00:36:20 - 00:36:38 Charlie McCoy

Like yeah, yeah, exactly. Next month will be 64 years or studio. I did 83 sessions last year, at 83 years old. Three years ago, I was made member of the Grand Ole Opry. I did 41 operas last year.

00:36:38 - 00:36:42 Ric Stewart

The New Orleans influence on American music. And your music. How do you see that?

00:36:42 - 00:37:11 Charlie McCoy

I love New Orleans. I like Dixieland a lot. And I had I had, met Pete Fountain. He was a friend of. And Bradley's, you know, and I met him, and, what a nice guy. And I that way he played clarinet. Was that Tony had a so great, you know. So when I did, I did an album for monument called harp and the Blues, and I decided to do all kinds of blues in it.

00:37:11 - 00:37:36 Charlie McCoy

There's even a song on air called A Tribute to Little Walter, and I wanted to do Basin Street Blues, so I asked Fred Foster. I said, do you know either Pete Walton or Al Hirt? He said, yeah, actually, no, both of them. I said, I could sure use one of them to play on a song. I want to do this Basin Street Blues.

00:37:36 - 00:38:08 Charlie McCoy

He said, let me, let me do some call in couple of weeks. He calls you back, and he said, I got both of them to say yes. So we recorded a track. I get on the plane, you know, with the old big two inch tape, fly to New Orleans, stay in a hotel next day, morning session. Because, that was the only time the studio was available that they recommended.

00:38:08 - 00:38:33 Charlie McCoy

And, I go to the session, and here they both come in. That's they both had clubs on Bourbon Street, and they both played late at night. And I felt so bad about it because, my God, these guys are normally still sleeping, you know. But we did Basin Street Blues. They got it first. Like. And it was it was a magic thing.

00:38:33 - 00:38:42 Charlie McCoy

And Pete said, man you want us to do it again? I said, no, no, this, this dog want man. And I love it.

00:38:42 - 00:38:45 Ric Stewart

Do you have any favorite Western movies of all time?

00:38:45 - 00:39:05 Charlie McCoy

When I was a kid, I was really into Roy Rogers and Gene Autry, mainly because they played guitar and sang, you know, and and a lot of my buddies, you know, of course, were young kids and a lot of my buddies. Oh, man, you like those sissy guys. You know, they like the the other, you know, Lone Ranger and all that stuff.

00:39:05 - 00:39:34 Charlie McCoy

I got booked once to go play on the soundtrack of a spaghetti western, Rustlers Rhapsody. And out of that movie, I mean, the movie was, you know, it's it's cornball. It's really it's almost like poking fun at westerns. But out of that movie came this great song, glass of the moon. Steve Dorff wrote it, and, Gary Morris had a huge hit on it.

00:39:34 - 00:39:42 Charlie McCoy

And, so I recorded an instrumental of Lasso the Moon. I liked it so much. Got a Grammy nomination on it.

00:39:42 - 00:39:48 Ric Stewart

Yeah, I was gonna say Westerns did feature harmonica quite a bit. And in fact, Jimmy Stewart plays the harmonica and some of the movies.

00:39:48 - 00:40:16 Charlie McCoy

I knew the guy that played in most of those movies. His name was Tommy Morgan, session player, an LA harmonica player. And, he played a I called it, I called it, Cowboy Campfire. And, I was I had a funny thing doing a jingle once with a company from New York. It never recorded here before. And this music guy walked out to me and he said, can you play something that sounds yellow?

00:40:16 - 00:40:35 Charlie McCoy

And I said, okay, what am I going to do? Yellow. And, so I've asked, so I've said, I'm going to go bizarre with this. I went cowboy campfire, you know.

00:40:35 - 00:40:46 Charlie McCoy

You know, that kind of heavy hand, Bubba? He came out and he said, that's it. I said, oh, okay. I didn't know that was yellow.

00:40:46 - 00:40:49 Ric Stewart

What projects are you working on now and looking forward to doing?

00:40:49 - 00:41:21 Charlie McCoy

I just finished, my 48 album. It's bluegrass. And, I had so much fun doing it. You know, I threw the 90s in the early, 2000s. I, toured a lot in Europe, and one of the places was the Czech Republic, and I had no idea about this. The bluegrass scene in the Czech Republic is amazing.

00:41:21 - 00:41:48 Charlie McCoy

They said when the communists were in control, there was this little spot in Berlin where the U.S., France and England were there. The U.S. had the Armed Forces Radio Network broadcasting, and the signal came into the Czech Republic. I called local station, and when they played bluegrass, we were just freaking out about it, you know, because nobody could afford electric instruments.

00:41:49 - 00:42:11 Charlie McCoy

So they were drawn to the acoustic instruments. And when they heard the bluegrass, I said, I got to learn that. And boy, I'm telling you, a bunch of them really have learned it. So there are five songs on it that were recorded in the Czech Republic with Czech musicians. One of them is a live recording. And then I have, a bunch of duets.

00:42:11 - 00:42:45 Charlie McCoy

I have duets with Rhonda Vincent, Cathy Matteo, Jeannie Seely, Alicia Nugent, you know, the other record that was so bizarre. Was it Pretty Woman? So, you know, there were three guitar players on that record and, Fred Foster comes out and says to me, I don't hear any harmonica on this. What else can you do? And Butch Randolph was there, and he said, hey, I brought my baritone sax.

00:42:45 - 00:42:55 Charlie McCoy

You can play a couple notes on it. So I played baritone sax on Pretty Woman, and all I did was bob up Bob. Bob. Same note.

00:42:55 - 00:42:59 Ric Stewart

Yeah, it's like the tuba bass. But.

00:42:59 - 00:43:05 Charlie McCoy

I played bass on, mohair. Sam, don't touch me, Jeannie Seely.

00:43:05 - 00:43:11 Ric Stewart

All right, so Mohair Sam is a legendary bass line. What was that environment like? The Charlie Rich version?

00:43:11 - 00:43:23 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, the. Yeah, Charlie Rich and, did it on, a Bobby Goes were a record, but I, you know, and then all the Dylan stuff and Leonard Cohen.

00:43:23 - 00:43:27 Ric Stewart

What about when Dylan and Kash got together in that Nashville Skyline era?

00:43:27 - 00:43:47 Charlie McCoy

Yeah, that was, that was in a song like that song, though. Girl from the North Country. When those guys started that tour of The Highwaymen. Man, what a collection that was. I got to tell you this story. So we're doing blond on blond, and I knew I'd heard it. Columbia had hired a new janitor. So I'm out.

00:43:47 - 00:44:06 Charlie McCoy

We're having a break, and I'm out in the hall. Guy walks up to me. He said, are you Charlie? And I said, yeah. And he said, I'm Chris, I'm the new janitor. Is there any way I could come in and listen for ten minutes? I said, okay, I want to show you where to stand. Do not say a word.

00:44:06 - 00:44:29 Charlie McCoy

Just stand there. Listen. So he did. It was Kristofferson. Nobody knew. The guy was a Rhodes Scholar and a helicopter pilot. You know, nobody knew that. And then all of a sudden, these songs started. Well, I think other than Hank, he was the next most in.

00:44:29 - 00:44:33 Ric Stewart

A lot of depth. You know, emotional depth and honesty and.

00:44:33 - 00:44:35 Charlie McCoy

And what a nice guy he was.

00:44:35 - 00:44:41 Ric Stewart

So talk to me about legacy. How would you like people to remember you for all this work?

00:44:41 - 00:44:46 Charlie McCoy

Our I'd like people remember that.

00:44:46 - 00:44:56 Charlie McCoy

I played what the song needed, had respect for the lyrics and the artists, and I was.

00:44:56 - 00:45:18 Charlie McCoy

Not trying to steal anybody's glory, you know? I had my own records that I could show off. But when I'm playing on a singer, I want to do the best I can do to make the singer sound good. And that's that's that's it. And, like I said, I'm I'm blessed more than I ever thought I could be to have this kind of career.

00:45:18 - 00:45:22 Charlie McCoy

It's like a fairy tale.

00:45:22 - 00:46:01 Ric Stewart

Unbelievable. Well, thank you very much for making it out to say. Okay, so country number nine is in the books with special appreciation to read. Math is for our theme. We write nine was brought to you by Ace Production and the Blues Center, with support from the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Foundation. Tune in again for more roots music, culture and lore as season three progresses with expansive, Ivan Neville, the cosmic Appalachian sounds of Olivia Wolf and Steely Dan session guitarist Dean parks, and find trailers, highlights and playlists, as well as a full archive of episodes at Soulcountry.com

Charlie McCoy

Soul Country #9

Airdate Jul 2, 2025

Podcast 45:31

Recorded in Nashville, TN

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Description

Dylan, Elvis and Orbison sideman Charlie McCoy is a hall of fame harmonica-centric multi-instrumentalist. Born in the same hospital where Hank Williams perished, McCoy brings his own mastery to many hits including “Take This Job and Shove It,” “Delta Dawn,” “Mohair Sam,” “Guitar Man” and “The Boxer” among thousands of tracks. Elvis entrusted him on 13 albums and Dylan made him bandleader for 5 records waxed in Nashville. In this Soul Country get down, Charlie talks about backing Chuck Berry in high school, and making a trip to New Orleans to get Al Hirt and Pete Fountain to join him on his blues album. Punctuated by some serious blasts of harp and presto a bona fide musical podcast.Sponsored in part with grants from the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Foundation.

More about Charlie McCoy

Born Charles Ray McCoy on March 28, 1941, in Oak Hill, West Virginia, Charlie McCoy is a renowned American harmonica virtuoso and multi-instrumentalist whose influence on country music is profound. Raised in Miami, Florida, McCoy began playing harmonica at age eight and moved to Nashville in 1960, where his career as a session musician took off. His harmonica solo on Roy Orbison’s “Candy Man” (1961) launched his reputation, followed by iconic contributions to George Jones’ “He Stopped Loving Her Today” (1980) and Barbara Mandrell’s “I Was Country When Country Wasn’t Cool” (1981). McCoy played on Bob Dylan’s Blonde on Blonde (1966) and Elvis Presley’s Harum Scarum soundtrack (1965), showcasing his versatility across harmonica, guitar, bass, and more. As a solo artist, he released The Real McCoy (1972), earning a Grammy, and Good Time Charlie (1973), which topped Billboard’s country charts. A member of Area Code 615 and music director for Hee Haw (1978–1997), McCoy was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in 2009 and joined the Grand Ole Opry in 2022.

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